S2E5 – TGD 3 – “Landing in Heaven”

Today we take our first steps into Heaven! The bus in which Lewis had been travelling alights in a new country and the passengers take their first tentative steps into this strange land…

S2E6: “The bus ride in the clouds” (Download)

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Time Stamps

In case your podcast application has the ability to jump to certain time codes, here are the timestamps for the different parts of the episode.

10:36 – Chapter 150-word Summary
11:35 – Chapter Discussion
37:55 – Haikus

Show Notes

• The drink-of-the-week was the Glenmorangie Quinta Ruban. Matt was drinking La Croix (correctly pronounced) because he’s currently doing Exodus 90.

• The quote-of-the-week comes from Lewis’ description of Heaven:

“The light and coolness that drenched me were like those of summer morning, early morning a minute or two before the sunrise… I had the sense of being in a larger space… I had got ‘out’ in some sense which made the Solar System itself seem an indoor affair”

– C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 4)

• I briefly talked about the interview I had just conducted with Patti Callahan, which was released last week.

• This week I’ve really been enjoying the Abiding Together podcast, with Sister Miriam, Michelle and Heather. They’re currently discussing The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

• We had an email from a listener, Luke:

I’d like to thank you for your podcasts…. I’d only ever [previously] read The Great Divorce and the first three books of Narnia (by publication order)… [Your podcast] inspired me to read Mere Christianity, The Screwtape Letters, God in the Dock, and I’m currently through most of CS Lewis Essay Collection and Other Short Pieces. [He] is now my new favorite author. I’ve also read through Francis Chan’s Crazy Love because of your recommendation and looking to get into some Chesterton as well.

[He shares a little bit more about his spiritual journey…]

As much as you enjoy the subject matter I am sure there are times when it becomes tedious and difficult and I appreciate all you do… So in closing, thank you.

– Email from listener Luke

• There was also a great topic raised on the C.S. Lewis Reddit page “If you had a 1 hour lunch with Lewis, and he starts with ‘So what would you like to chat about?’, how would you respond?”. Here were my topics:

• Topic #1: Were the Narnian Chronicles based on the Seven Heavens (cf Michael Ward)?
• Topic #2: How exactly he fell in love with Joy Davidman
• Topic #3: His opinions on all the controversial issues he says he’s not going to discuss in Mere Christianity
• Topic #4: Why he didn’t convert to Orthodoxy or Catholicism
• Topic #5: What kind of mystical experiences he had in his life (I’m convinced he had more of them)

Matt said that Lewis’ explanation of Christianity in terms of theosis revolutionized his understanding of the Faith, so he’d want to know what books really influenced Lewis’ own understanding. I initially suggested that Phantastes by George MacDonald, as well as The Everlasting Man by G.K. Chesterton would probably be top of the list. Then I remembered that Lewis had actually listed them during an interview.

Matt also said that he would just ask for general life advice, and referenced a quotation from Lewis which I recently converted into a graphic on our Instagram account:

“If I had to give a piece of advice to a young man about a place to live, I think I should say, sacrifice almost everything to live where you can be near your friends”

– C.S. Lewis, Letter to Arthur Greeves (29th December 1935)

• Matt shared his 150-word summary of the chapter:

The bus climbs over a cliff and lands. The passengers push and shove to get out. The light and coolness drenches Lewis like a summer morning before sunrise. The space feels gigantic, giving him a sense of freedom, but also of danger. His fellow passengers are almost transparent and the grass does not bend under their feet. It appears that this land is made of some different, denser substance, such that men were ghosts by comparison. In response, one ghost runs back into the bus, screaming. The Driver tells them that they can stay as long as they please.

A “respectable” ghosts comments that he left the Grey Town to get away from this riff-raff! Jack sees “bright” people coming to meet them, ageless, some naked and some robed, with the grass bending under their feet. Two more ghosts run screaming to the bus. The remaining phantoms huddle close together.

– Matt’s 150-word summary of Chapter 4

• Matt reads the section where Lewis describes the ascent into Heaven:

“It sank vertically beneath us so far that I could not see the bottom, and it was dark and smooth. We were mounting all the time. At last the top of the cliff became visible like a thin line of emerald green”

– C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 4

We were both drawn to the part where Lewis speaks about the “thin line of emerald green”. In San Diego we don’t get much green, I commented that the green is what jumps out at me whenever I visit England. Matt recommends that visitors to England should visit the gardens of Oxford.

Matt pointed out that to get to the foothills of Heaven, they simply had to get into the bus – the initial hard work was done for them. However, once they’ve arrived in Heaven there is a final mountain to climb!

We discussed the significance of mountains in Sacred Scripture. They are places of encounter with God, where He makes covenants with His people. Matt asked if there was something similar in Dante’s Divine Comedy, which there is. It actually reminded me of a website sent to me by listener Katie which allows you to browse through Dante’s Inferno!

• All the passengers fight to get off the bus, despite the fact that, as soon as they get out, they huddle by the bus!

I was alone in the bus, and through the open door there came to me in the fresh stillness the singing of a lark

– C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 4

The “fresh stillness” of Heaven reminded Matt of the episode in 1 Kings 19:9-18 where Elijah encounters God on Mount Horeb.

Matt said that this description reminded him of the movie On Golden Pond. I said that it reminded me of early mornings when I’m up before the dawn.

• I then read Lewis’ description of the land:

“The light and coolness that drenched me were like those of summer morning, early morning a minute or two before the sunrise, only that there was a certain difference. I had the sense of being in a larger space, perhaps even a larger sort of space, than I had ever known before: as if the sky were further off and the extent of the green plain wider than they could be on this little ball of earth. I had got “out” in some sense which made the Solar System itself seem an indoor affair”

– C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 4

I pointed out that the sunrise of Heaven is meant to be contrasted with Hell.

Matt and I commented on the similarity between this land and Aslan in Narnia – neither are “tame”. We said that the encounter with “the awesome” raises our hearts to God. Matt compared this St. Teresa of Avila’s Interior Castle where she speaks about recognition of our true place in in the world and our position before God.

• Lewis realizes that the passengers are ghosts:

“Now that they were in the light, they were transparent-fully transparent when they stood between me and it, smudgy and imperfectly opaque when they stood in the shadow of some tree. They were in fact ghosts: man-shaped stains on the brightness of that air. One could attend to them or ignore them at will as you do with the dirt on a window pane. I noticed that the grass did not bend under their feet: even the dew drops were not disturbed”

– C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 4

He realizes that the passengers appear ghostly in comparison to Heaven:

“made of some different substance, so much solider than things in our country that men were ghosts by comparison”

– C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 4

One of the ghosts runs back into the bus screaming “It gives me the pip!” I had to look this up – it’s a phrase which means one is feeling disturbed and derives from a disease which would afflict poultry. I said I think I would freak out too!

I connected Lewis’ Heaven to Plato and Augustine. Heaven and the Saints are more substantial because of their communion with God. When we turn in on ourselves (“Incurvatus in se” as St. Augustine described it) we become less real, not more real. It reminded me of the section in Mere Christianity where C.S. Lewis says that there is so much personality in Christ that, when we allow Him to live in us, we will becoming more ourselves, not less.

This substantive Heaven stands in stark contrast to the neo-Gnostic of “the fat, clean-shaven ghost”.

• They discover that they can stay in Heaven if they wish. Matt points out that in the journey of the Christianity we have to keep saying “Yes” to God.

I reassured the listeners who are troubled by the idea of residents of Hell moving to Heaven of what Lewis said in the Preface – this is fiction, an imaginative supposal.

• The “more respectable” ghost doesn’t think much of the passengers. Like the tousle-headed poet, he doesn’t think that they’ll enjoy it. I suggested that this really just shows that, like growing in holiness, there’s a journey still to make.

This passenger says that he is expected and will be met soon, but doesn’t say by whom. I suggested that he says this due to his feeling of self-importance.

“The earth shook under their tread as their strong feet sank into the wet turf. A tiny haze and a sweet smell went up where they had crushed the grass and scattered the dew”

– C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 4

• After speaking about the sunrise for a little while, we talk about Lewis’ description of the “Bright Spirits” coming from the mountain:

“…some were naked, some robed. But the naked ones did not seem less adorned, and the robes did not disguise in those who wore them the massive grandeur of muscle and the radiant smoothness of flesh. Some were bearded but no one in that company struck me as being of any particular age”

– C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 4

In these “Solid People” we see what the ghosts will eventually become. It alludes to what Lewis said in Mere Christianity which he drew from St. Athanasius:

“The Son of God became man, so that men could become sons of God”

– St. Athanasius, On the Incarnation

Concerning their clothing, or lack thereof, I compared it to Adam and Eve before the Fall – they are now clothed with grace.

When discussing the agelessness of the Ghosts, I compared it to the visage of monks and nuns and others who spend their lives in prayer. They have a wisdom beyond their years and a beauty which we associate with youth. Lewis is bringing these two things together to show what proximity to God does to you.

• The ghosts react badly:

They came on steadily. I did not entirely like it. Two of the ghosts screamed and ran for the bus. The rest of us huddled closer to one another.

– C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Chapter 4

We suggested that they respond like this because holiness can be intimidating.

• I ended the episode with my haikus. Firstly, I shared my haikus for Heaven:

Light, cool, dangerous

More spacious than the heavens

What is this strange place?

Foothills of Heaven

With Daisies tough like iron

Ground, hard as diamonds

Haikus for Heaven

• Secondly, I shared my haiku for the ghosts:

We are ghostly folk

Man-shaped stains on the landscape

We are filled with dread…

Haikus for the Ghosts

• Finally, I shared my haiku for the Bright Spirits:

Ageless, beautiful

Earth shaking under their feet

Bright Spirits; they come!

Haikus for the Bright Spirits

• We also had a haiku for a listener, Giovanna, which describes the journey ahead for these ghosts:

Free will is a choice:

Will we become Real People?

Or will we stay ghosts?

– Giovanna