Today will be an “After Hours” episode of The Eagle and Child, a new kind of format which we will occasionally intersperse among our regular programmes. In these episodes David will be talking to C.S. Lewis authors and enthusiasts.
Today David will be interviewing Justin Wiggins, who recently published his book, “Surprised By Agape”, which chronicles his own journey of faith and describes the role that C.S. Lewis played in that journey…
S1E34: After Hours with Justin Wiggins (Download)
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Show Notes
Introduction
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Quote-of-the-Week
- David began by explaining the format of these “After Hours” episodes, quoting from Lewis’ book, “The Four Loves”:
…when our slippers are on, our feet spread out toward the blaze and our drinks are at our elbows; when the whole world, and something beyond the world, opens itself to our minds as we talk.
C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves (Chapter 4)
Biographical Information
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Chit Chat and Oxford
- David introduced Justin Wiggins, who he met through The Official C.S. Lewis Group on Facebook.
- Justin began by telling the story of his trip to Oxford with Dr. Don King from Montreat College, to visit the important C.S. Lewis sites in Oxford, the highlight of which was having a pint with his friend David Jack at the famous Inklings pub:
- Justin talked about how he got a publishing deal from Grant Hudson of Clarendon House and was subsequently endorsed by Dr. Don King, David Jack and Carolyn Curtis.
Toast
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Discussion
01. “Journey of Faith”
Q. Let’s talk about the book itself. You open it by sharing your personal faith journey, and C. S. Lewis’ role in it. Could you recap that?
- Justin’s journey began with the music of the band, Switchfoot.
We were meant to live for so much more Have we lost ourselves?… We want more than this world’s got to offer… And everything inside screams for second life.
Switchfoot, Meant To Live
- The lead singer of Switchfoot, John Foreman, mentioned Lewis often in interviews, in particular when speaking about the song “This is Home” which was used for the Prince Caspian movie. This prompted Justin to start reading Lewis.
- During the discussion, it transpired that Justin read the Narnia books in chronological order, rather than the publication order (the correct order!). They may no longer be able to be friends.
- Justin experienced something transcendent when reading the account of Narnia’s creation in “The Magician’s Nephew” and compared it to Lewis’ experience of first reading George MacDonald’s “Phantastes”, which Lewis later described as having “baptized” his imagination.
02. “Art and Beauty”
- David commented that he went back and listened to his favourite Switchfoot song in preparation for the interview and discovered that it was a musical version of Lewis’ Argument From Desire:
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.
C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity (Book III, Chapter 10)
03. “Mere Christianity”
Q. When we left off the story, you had been listening to Switchfoot, and began reading Lewis. Where did you go from there?
- Justin found Lewis’ argument in Book I of “Mere Christianity”, about how there is an objective moral law (and how this points to a transcendent moral law giver) very convincing. Lewis expands upon this in his book, “The Abolition of Man” where he speaks of “the Tao”.
04. “Surrender”
Q. So, you read “Mere Christianity”… did that take you home?
- Justin found the arguments for Christianity compelling enough to surrender to Christ and accept Him as Lord.
- David quoted “Mere Christianity”, and the Christian theme of transformation:
…Christ’s work…is not mere improvement but Transformation. The nearest parallel to it in the world of nature is to be found in the remarkable transformations we can make in insects by applying certain rays to them.
C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
05. “The Gateway Drug”
Q. You were now a Christian. Where did you take this love of Lewis?
- As he started community college, Justin was reading all the Lewis books he could get his hands on. This led him to other authors such as George MacDonald, J. R. R. Tolkien, and G. K. Chesterton. Through this, he started to discover his vocation to literature and find his own voice as a writer.
06. “Through the Valley”
Q. You felt that you discovered a new vocation. Where did that take you:?
- He started at East Carolina University, but things took at turn for the worse. Depression grew and he even attempted suicide and was hospitalised. He dropped out of university and worked as a Barista for several years.
- A real turning point came when he attended an Inklings Retreat at Montreat College, where he met Dr. King for the first time. He also met Colin Deriez. A year later he applied to and was accepted by Montreat College.
- Justin got to meet Lewis’ stepson, Douglas Gresham, and hear him speak about Lewis’ relationship with Gresham’s mother, Joy Davidman, author of “Smoke on the Mountain”.
07. “Agape Love”
Q. After you tell your story in the book, you addressed “agape” and “joy”. Can you explain what Lewis meant by these things, and how they came across in his writings?
- Justin uses the title of Lewis autobiography, “Surprised By Joy”, in the title of his own book, but that’s okay because Lewis himself stole it from a poem by Wordsworth!
- While you can see the idea of “agape” throughout Lewis’ works, Justin spent some time speaking about “The Four Loves”, a book where Jack discusses the four different Greek words for love: “Storge” (Affection), “Philia” (Friendship), “Eros” (Romance) and “Agape” (Charity).
- Lewis gave away most of the money he made. It was done through the Agape Fund, setup for him by his friend Owen Barfield. Justin also told the story of Jill Freud, a girl who lived at the Kilns during World War II, and whom Lewis sponsored in her acting career.
- Lewis’ journey involved a considerable amount of philosophical thought and reason, but Justin spoke about how it was ultimately the agape of Christ which wouldn’t let him go which brought about his conversion, much like “The Hound of Heaven” in Francis Thompson’s poem.
08. “Joy”
Q. You spend the rest of the book talking about the theme of “joy”. Could you expand upon that?
- Also central to Lewis’ writings is the concept of “Joy”. In German, it’s called “Sehnsucht”. Rudolf Otto called it “The Numinous”. In his sermon in “The Weight of Glory”, Lewis critiques the idea that joy is simply romanticism. Instead, it is a longing with a true object, God.
- Justin’s favourite book is “Perelandra”, saying that it gives you a glimpse of Heaven. The protagonist, a man by the name of “Ransom” experiences the yearning which Lewis knew so well when this character sees the landscape of Venus. This yearning is also found in “Til We Have Faces”.
- Lewis did not regard his works like the “Chronicles of Narnia”, “The Great Divorce” and “Perelandra” as “allegory”. Rather, they were “imaginative supposals”.
- Justin spent some time talking about the “numinous”, or the sense of awe at the universe that suggests divine origin. “Numinous” was an idea that Lewis borrowed from “The Idea of the Holy” by Rudolf Otto. Numinous played a significant role in Justin’s conversion.
Wrap-Up
More Information
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Concluding Thoughts
- Justin is currently working as a librarian and barista. He will hopefully be studying at Oxford Brookes in England next year.
- David will be giving away a free copy of Justin’s book to the first person who tweets him the English translation of the Greek word used in the title of Justin’s book: “agape”…
