We’re back discussing The Great Divorce this week. In today’s chapter “The Intelligent Ghost” attempts to take some apples back to the grey town…
S2E9: “The Apple Thief” (Download)
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Time Stamps
In case your podcast application has the ability to jump to certain time codes, here are the timestamps for the different parts of the episode.
10:26 – Chapter 150-word Summary
11:35 – Chapter Discussion
38:01 – Haikus
Show Notes
• Matt says some mean things about me which will get him into serious trouble with my mother…
• The quote-of-the-week described the actions of Ikey, the Bowler-hatted Ghost:
“I could see him feverishly trying to fill his pockets with the apples. Of course it was useless. One could see how his ambitions were gradually forced down. He gave up the idea of a pocketful: two would have to do. He gave up the idea of two, he would take one, the largest. He gave up that hope. He was now looking for the smallest one. He was trying to find if there was one small enough to carry.”
The Great Divorce, Chapter 6
• We were both rather boring regarding the drink-of-the-week. Matt was drinking a Lime-flavoured La Croix and I was drinking some ginger tea as I was feeling a little under-the-weather.
• I announced that Giovanna won the Patti Callahan competition and will be receiving a signed copy of Becoming Mrs Lewis.
• I spoke about attending the C.S. Lewis Conference in Pomona where I got to meet Jerry Root and Andrew Lazo. I got to watch an extended clip of A Hobbit, a Wardrobe and a Great War (I read the book last year). I also discovered that the Scotch Lewis would drink is Vat 69.
• Matt read some messages from listeners which we’ve recently received. The first was from Josh:
“I’m excited because this coming Saturday I am going to the Logos Theater in Taylors, SC (it’s about 30 minutes from my house) and my wife and I will see The Horse and His Boy and Douglas Gresham will be in attendance!!! I’m hoping to get an autograph and a picture with him!”
Message from Listener, Josh
I saw on Facebook that Justin Wiggins will be going to that same performance, so hopefully they’ll get to wave at each other!
The other message we read was from Rick who has worked on The White Horse Inn podcast with his son:
“Greetings fellow Christian saboteurs behind enemy lines. It’s great to know you are in a foxhole nearby… I am your biggest fan. Well done boys, God bless!”
Message from Listener, Rick
• On Twitter I saw a video by Lina Maslo of an lovely illustrated biography of Lewis. It’ll be released in the Spring of 2020. I’ll make sure I get her on the show nearer the time.
• I then gave my 150-word summary of the chapter:
Jack arrives at a massive waterfall. He notices that a nearby hawthorn bush “seemed to be behaving oddly”. It turns out to be The Intelligent Ghost whom Lewis met on the bus who wanted to export heavenly goods to the grey town. He is sneaking up to a tree with golden apples…
After recovering from injuries inflicted by the falling fruit, the ghost attempts to fill his pockets with the apples, but “his ambitions were gradually forced down” from multiple, large apples to the smallest apple he could find. Even though he is bent double, he begins the tortuous journey back to the bus.
The waterfall, which is an angel, tells him to put the apple down since “There is not room for it in Hell”. He invites him instead to remain in Heaven and “learn to eat such apples”. The ghost either doesn’t hear the angel, or chooses to ignore him. He continues his journey back to the bus…
Summary of Chapter 6 of the Great Divorce
• I explained that the Ghost which Lewis meets in this chapter is the one he spoke to on the bus. This ghost thought that the solution to the problems in the grey town was capitalism, to bring back some goods from Heaven to sell.
• Matt reviewed the previous chapter when we met the Episcopal Ghost. From that chapter we saw the importance of recognizing that there is absolute truth, as well as the danger of the “slow fade” in our faith.
• Matt and I both enjoyed the opening section of the chapter:
“…the cool smooth skin of the bright water was delicious to my feet”
The Great Divorce, Chapter 6
• Lewis was forced off the hard water of the river by the foam which hurt his feet. He is then drawn to a particular part of the wood:
“An immense yet lovely noise vibrated through the forest. Hours later I rounded a bend and saw the explanation”
The Great Divorce, Chapter 6
The source of the noise turns out to be a waterfall pouring into a lake. Lewis realizes that, while he can’t yet handle the foam of the river, he has been changed, something has happened to his senses since coming to Heaven:
“I realised that something had happened to my senses so that they were now receiving impressions which would normally exceed their capacity. On earth, such a waterfall could not have been perceived at all as a whole; it was too big. Its sound would have been a terror in the woods for twenty miles. Here, after the first shock, my sensibility “took” both, as a well-built ship takes a huge wave”
The Great Divorce, Chapter 6
The land seems to have already begun to change him. I pointed out that something similar happens to the children in The Chronicles of Narnia.
• Once again we read about how this place is both exhilarating and scary:
“The noise, though gigantic, was like giant’s laughter: like the revelry of a whole college of giants together laughing, dancing, singing, roaring at their high works.”
The Great Divorce, Chapter 6
• It is then that Jack notices a tree full of golden apples:
Near the place where the fall plunged into the lake there grew a tree. Wet with the spray, halfveiled in foam-bows, flashing with the bright, innumerable birds that flew among its branches, it rose in many shapes of billowy foliage, huge as a fen-land cloud. From every point apples of gold gleamed through the leaves.
The Great Divorce, Chapter 6
I pointed out the mythological allusions, such as The Nymphs of Hesperides and the golden apple of discord (Mythology Podcast Episode 1 and Episode 2). Lewis also spoke about a the golden apple of self-hood in his book, The Problem of Pain:
The golden apple of selfhood, thrown among the false gods, became an apple of discord because they scrambled for it. They did not know the first rule of the holy game, which is that every player must by all means touch the ball and then immediately pass it on. To be found with it in your hands is a fault: to cling to it, death.
The Problem of Pain, Chapter 10
There was also silver apples towards the end of The Magician’s Nephew. One character takes one in the right way, and another takes one in the wrong way.
Of course, the most obvious allusion is to Eden, when Adam and Eve take the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I blew Matt’s mind by pointing out that the Biblical text never actually calls the fruit an apple, it’s just often rendered as an apple because of the common Latin root between the words “Evil” and “Apple” (Malum). I commented that the Church Fathers suggest that Adam and Eve were eventually meant to receive the fruit, but only at the right time and in the right way.
All of these allusions prepare us for what is about to happen with this Bowler-hatted Ghost…
• Lewis notices the Bowler-hatted Ghost whom he met on the bus who said that he was going to take back some goods to sell in the grey town:
“A hawthorn bush not twenty yards away seemed to be behaving oddly. Then I saw that it was not the bush but something standing close to the bush and on this side of it. Finally I realised that it was one of the Ghosts”
The Great Divorce, Chapter 6
• The Ghost is trying not to be seen, moving “quickly”, using trees as cover. He’s trying to make it to the apple tree. However, he’s blocked by some flowers:
“Here it was checked. Round the Tree grew a belt of lilies: to the Ghost an insuperable obstacle. It might as well have tried to tread down an anti-tank trap as to walk on them”
The Great Divorce, Chapter 6
• I taught Matt how to pronounce “insuperable” (IN-SUE-PER-A-BULL).
• A gust of wind dislodges apples from the tree which hit the ghost.
• The Ghost starts trying to collect apples, but his ambitions encounter with reality forces down his ambitions:
“One could see how his ambitions were gradually forced down. He gave up the idea of a pocketful: two would have to do. He gave up the idea of two, he would take one, the largest. He gave up that hope. He was not looking for the smallest one. He was trying to find if there was one small enough to carry”
The Great Divorce, Chapter 6
• Nevertheless, the Ghost manages to lift an apple, which impresses Lewis. Was he able to do this because of his time in Heaven? Or was it because of the strength of his desire? Whatever the reason, the Ghost tries to take the apple back to Hell:
“He was lame from his hurts, and the weight bent him double. Yet even so, inch by inch, still availing himself of every scrap of cover, he set out on his via dolorosa to the bus, carrying his torture”
The Great Divorce, Chapter 6
Given that I was teaching Matt all kinds of Latin this episode, I explained that “via dolorsa” means “way of suffering” and is traditionally used to describe Christ’s carrying of the cross.
• It turns out that the Waterfall is alive:
“With an appalling certainty I knew that the waterfall itself was speaking: and I saw now (though it did not cease to look like a waterfall) that it was also a bright angel who stood, like one crucified, against the rocks and poured himself perpetually down towards the forest with loud joy.”
The Great Divorce, Chapter 6
The Waterfall/Angel says the following:
“Fool put it down. You cannot take it back. There is not room for it in Hell. Stay here and learn to eat such apples. The very leaves and the blades of grass in the wood will delight to teach you”
The Great Divorce, Chapter 6
This made me realize how foolish his quest was. Why take back to Hell (assuming that was even possible) an apple which you could barely carry and certainly couldn’t eat?!
• Matt discussed the conflict between the Ghost and Heaven (“ultimate reality”) in this chapter and about the gradual nature of growing more substantial and how this can parallel the Christian journey.
• I ended by talking about the Carmen Christi (Latin: “Hymn of Christ”) which talks about how Jesus emptied Himself (Greek: kenosis) and how we should imitate this:
Have this mind among yourselves, which was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.
Philippians 2:5-8
Rather than copying the example of our first parents, we shouldn’t reach out and grasp, we should open our hands and receive whatever God wants to give us. We need to do things in the right way and at the right time.
Go and watch our Heavenly and Hellish Creature video!
• I wrote three haikus for the Bowler-hatted Ghost:
Supply and demand
Keynesian Economics
Let’s turn Hell around!Finding goods to sell
Heavenly goods to bring back
To brighten up HellThose Golden apples…
The Bowler-hatted Ghost Haikus
…if I can just pick them up…
…I’ll make a quick buck…
I also wrote one for the Waterfall/angel:
You fool, put it down!
The Waterfall Haiku
You can’t take it back with you!
Hell is far too small!
